You got to hear this!

Originally posted by Jeff K:
. I forget what program it was, but a month or two ago there was a discussion of the "big block Pontiac" 455 compared to the small block Pontiac.

Yeah, I love experts. Pontiac basically used the same block design from 1955 to 1979, just boring and stroking it through the years from the 287 all the way up to the 455. 1976 being the last year for a 455 and 79 for a 400. It is neither a small or big block just Pontiac. If there ever was a small block Pontiac it would be the 301 short deck engine family introduced in 1977 and ran through I believe 1980. These so called experts need to buy some books and get the info correct before they get on the air. By the way if anyone messes with Pontiacs on here, I used to and have lots of info on those engines and parts interchanges. Just my 2 cents worth...Tommy


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Tommy Moore

Code 33 Silver Blue Clearcoat Metallic 1987 Turbo Coupe, Shadow Blue interior, 5 Speed, Gillis valve, Hurst shifter, 140 mph speedo, Auburn Posi unit with 3.73 gears, Flowmasters, KYB struts, shocks , and quads, 2nd and 5th owner of the car. I just had to buy it back.

Originally posted by PetzJC:
.

I have been messing around with Clevelands ever since I bought my 69 Mach-I in 1980. When it comes to "Production naturally aspirated iron blocks", nothing else compares to the Cleveland's horsepower to cubic-inch output ratio because of its canted valve head design.

That motor, the 351C, and the 302 Chev, Camaro were considered the best to work with for HP to cubic inch, as far as I can remember. You get a lot of people thinking your absolutely nuts when you tell them that Chev made a 302. Try it.


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87 T/C, 5sp., Hardened Crank, Crower Sportsman Rods, J.E. full floating pistons, .030 over, Total Seal rings, Head and Main studs, Ported/Polished head, 1.89, 1.59 S.S Valves. Motorsport Lifters, A-234 cam, Fidanza Adj. cam sprocket, ported polished lower, gutted upper intake, Rod's S/S headers, 3" DP, T3/T04E 46, Gillis BCV, Forge Bypass, K&N Air Filter, Kirban Adj. FPR, Walbro 255 FP., 42# inj., J3 Adaptor. Still have to mount the GN I/C.

Actually, they are correct. What would you call a 5.7 engine in a Trans Am? It is a small block Pontiac. It may have started out as a Chevrolet engine, but, it has migrated to a Corporate engine.

Hawk

Originally posted by Hawk:
Actually, they are correct. What would you call a 5.7 engine in a Trans Am? It is a small block Pontiac. It may have started out as a Chevrolet engine, but, it has migrated to a Corporate engine.

Hawk

I don't think they are correct. The Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, and Olds engines are all completely different from the Chevy engines. The 5.7 engine in a Trans Am is not a small block Pontiac, it is a small block Chevy engine no matter what GM corporate puts it in or says it is. If you put a 350 Chevy in a Ford or a Dodge it does not make it a small block Ford or a small block Dodge, does it? No of course not. GM went with the small block Chevy as a corporate engine to save money. And, I think a lot of the uniqueness of GM cars went away when they went with the corporate engine as well. Just my thoughts on it...Tommy [Image: smile.gif]

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Tommy Moore

Code 33 Silver Blue Clearcoat Metallic 1987 Turbo Coupe, Shadow Blue interior, 5 Speed, Gillis valve, Hurst shifter, 140 mph speedo, Auburn Posi unit with 3.73 gears, Flowmasters, KYB struts, shocks , and quads, 2nd and 5th owner of the car. I just had to buy it back.

Originally posted by PetzJC:
The Cleveland is the Red Headed Step Child of SB and BB's. It is neither. The Cleveland is in a class of its own as a Medium Block.

I think the 351 Cleveland is the best all around performance engine Ford built. Small block RPM's and weight with big block power. I have had two 72 Mach 1 and two 73 Mach 1 Mustangs with the 351C in them. With just a little tinkering you can make those little engines run off and leave big blocks. I know I've seen me do it. [Image: biggrin.gif] I also had a 71 Mach 1 Mustang that I put a 1969 351 Windsor 4bbl in. That little engine ran pretty strong for a stock engine as well....Tommy


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Tommy Moore

Code 33 Silver Blue Clearcoat Metallic 1987 Turbo Coupe, Shadow Blue interior, 5 Speed, Gillis valve, Hurst shifter, 140 mph speedo, Auburn Posi unit with 3.73 gears, Flowmasters, KYB struts, shocks , and quads, 2nd and 5th owner of the car. I just had to buy it back.

Rairbird is right. The 302 chevy was a RACING engine that chevy had in their camaro racing cars for the SCCA and Trans Am series.

Not to discredit the Ford 351C, Boss 302, or Chevy DZ 302, but I still have never driven a stock small block that could out-do an AMC 390, especially a 70 with the dog-leg heads. They weigh about the same as a modern 5.0L iron and made about 375 HP and 450 FT/LBS at the flywheel. My grandfather still has his 68 AMX that he bought brand new (in fact, he just turned over 11000 miles) and it is the fastest most wicked car I have ever driven, including his race cars! He ran Stock in NHRA in the 60's and 70's and held the National record in his class at a 12.8 something for many years. Then he got a 69 Hurst S/S AMX and went downhill from there...he goes faster every damn year (An 8.60's alcohol built 425 ci AMC dragster).

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Michael Pinto
www.aerobirdmotorsports.com

1988 Med Red/Red leather 5Spd, all options, getting fresh motor
1988 Cougar LS Med Red/Red cloth, 5.0/auto, daily driver
1987 Code 33 Silver-Blue/Charcoal cloth auto, undergoing race engine/5Spd swap
1988 White/Charcoal cloth auto, g/f's car, HL mod, Clarion CD/Stereo
1988 Shadow Blue/Blue cloth 5Spd, hit by truck, missing engine, for sale
1984 Silver/Grey leather, 5Spd, parts car
1992 Dk Green SHO 3Spd, feature car, 13.37 @104

RIP-1988 Med Red/Charcoal cloth 5Spd, all options, McK kit, spoiler

thcrusher315 is also right. The so called BOP (Buick, olds, Pontiac) was all the same tranny bolt pattern for years even though they were diffent engines from all the rest and chevy had their own tranny bolt pattern. Buick and Pontiacs had actual small and big blocks. Olds was the ONLY one that the small blocks were also the big blocks. (GM didn't give them the money to build a engine to compete with the Pontiacs 455, the Buick 455, the Chevy 454, and Caddy's 501) so Olds bored and stroke out the small block the had to make the famous 400 and 455 for the 442 series. When the '80's came thats when GM started using the same enignes in diffrent cars for cost cutting measures. So the so called 5.0 and 5.7 in the Camaros and Firebirds were BOTH the same. (GM being cheap and cost cutting as usual and still to this day) Sorry two more cents from me (I am a GM man driving Fords for almost ten years starting with my old 1985 T-bird anniversary edition, to a '92 explorer, to a 1997 expediton, to now my 1987 TC and 2003 Expedition)

Originally posted by BigMikeTC:
Buick and Pontiacs had actual small and big blocks. Olds was the ONLY one that the small blocks were also the big blocks. (

Buick and Old's both had small and big blocks. But not Pontiac. True, the BOP's and Cadillacs had the same bellhousing bolt pattern for the transmissions. The 350 Old's and Buick's were considered small blocks and were substantially narrower than the 400, 425, and 455 Old's and Buick big blocks. The Pontiac was the same size from the 287 all the way up the the 455. Even Pontiac's 4 cylinder engine in 1963 was basically half of a 389. It even used a 389 head. It was like they cut a 389 in half and made a 4 cylinder. It was not until 1977 that Pontiac made a smaller V8 engine with the 301. From 1959 til' 1964 all Pontiac heads and intakes would bolt on the all blocks with no problem. In 1965 Pontiac changed the intake and heads to the 10 bolt design and all intakes 65 and up would interchange. In 67, Pontiac changed the head design with different valve angles and all heads from 67 up will interchange. You can run 67 up heads on older engines but you have to use the 67 up pistons due to the different valve relief angles. So what I am saying is the Pontiac engine is the same not big block or small block. If you wanted, you can take the intake and heads off of a 455 and put them on a 1959 389 as long as you use the proper pistons. Because except for the bore and stroke and a few changes thru the years they are the same block. Sorry this is long but I had to explain it in more detail. Sometimes I get a little anal. LOL [Image: biggrin.gif]



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Tommy Moore

Code 33 Silver Blue Clearcoat Metallic 1987 Turbo Coupe, Shadow Blue interior, 5 Speed, Gillis valve, Hurst shifter, 140 mph speedo, Auburn Posi unit with 3.73 gears, Flowmasters, KYB struts, shocks , and quads, 2nd and 5th owner of the car. I just had to buy it back.

Trans am with a 5.7L in the late 70's? Sounds very fishy to me. Plain Firebirds and Formulas ,yes. TA's, I don't think so. It's very rare to find a 4.9 TA NA the only other engines were the 400 pontiac and 403 olds. Early 70's had 455's and 400's. That's one of the things that always separated TA's from Z28's, cubes. However they did make a 305 that last year or 2 ('80 and'81 I think)mainly for California and very slow. Never a 350 that I know of in a TA.

Think of what a screamer they could build today with a turbo v8. The fastest TA ever built was the turbo v6.

I had '78 Formula that had a factory chevy 350, but they also produced factory pontiac 350 at the same time. Very confusing for the parts people.



[This message has been edited by TCorBUST (edited 05-02-2005).]