North American Turbocoupe Organization



Computer Shortcomings
SteveX82 Offline
Posting Freak
#1
I've been noticing lately just how finicky my TC's computer seems to be under various conditions and was hoping somebody might be able to shed some light on the situations.

For instance, if I creep the rpm's up to 2500 or so in 2nd gear and then mash the throttle, the car absolutely takes off. However, if I mash the throttle at around 2000rpm and wait for boost to build up, the car wavers a bit before finally settling in and making power until 3500-4000rpm.

Also, I've found it damn near impossible to tune my fuel pressure so that I get a nice, powerful a/f ratio in first and second gear without pinging like mad for a few moments after going WOT in 3rd-5th gears. What causes this, and is there any simple way to prevent it?

At this rate, I'm about to call it quits with the stock computer. I'd like to go the EEC-tuner route, but it all seems so terribly complicated and geared more specifically to the 5.0 crowd. Then there's a standalone system, but that's a bit more money than I'd like to spend at the moment. All I want is to be able to drive my car as hard as I want to without fearing that "hey, i'm in 3rd gear with my fuel pressure set for power in 1st and 2nd gear, so I can't floor it unless I'm above 3200rpm so the computer doesn't fag out on me." So yeah, feel free to make any suggestions as to how I can teach my car to make the most of the work I've done to it.

Edit: Thanks in advance [Image: smile.gif]

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BLUE 1987 TC 5spd, 133k miles

k&n cone in fenderwell, gillis valve set at 18lbs (22 at track), kirban adjustable fpr set at 42psi, walbro 255 hi-pressure pump, bosch hi-pressure bypass valve, ported e6, .60/.48 T3 turbo, full 3" exhaust, 245/50 rear tires

Best 1/4 mile: 14.120 (with 1.983 60' time)
Best trap speed: 96.98mph

[This message has been edited by SteveX82 (edited 09-07-2002).]
Estoril blue 1987 TC 5spd, 148k mi, a237, Bailey BOV, spec stg3 clutch, spearco FMIC, 50 trim t3/t4, 3" exhaust, Bamafuel, LM1, 55pph
Best 1/4 mile: 12.31 @ 110mph on 25psi
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Pete D Offline
Administrator
#2
Do you operate the gas pedal different in 3rd than in 1 & 2?

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NATO Member. it's not a vice, it's an obsession
"The nice thing about each new day is nobody ever used it before" Barnaby Jones
88 TC X 2, 86 SVO, mods list at
http://www.turbotbird.com/showroom/pd_88tc.htm
Pete Dunham


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SteveX82 Offline
Posting Freak
#3
Quote:Originally posted by Pete D:
Do you operate the gas pedal different in 3rd than in 1 & 2?


Nope, it's still just a quick stomp to the floor with the right foot off of about 10% throttle during cruising.

However, I have noticed what you seem to be hinting at. If I gently tip into the throttle in 2nd gear to build up some boost and then floor it, the car initially "feels" much faster than during a quick WOT stomp. Maybe the computer is just too slow to recognize a transition from 10 deg of vaccuum to 20 psi of boost too quickly?
Estoril blue 1987 TC 5spd, 148k mi, a237, Bailey BOV, spec stg3 clutch, spearco FMIC, 50 trim t3/t4, 3" exhaust, Bamafuel, LM1, 55pph
Best 1/4 mile: 12.31 @ 110mph on 25psi
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Jeff K Offline
Administrator
#4
You may be right about the computer. Remember that the LA3 fuel and spark tables are designed to work with the stock BCS system, which only allows 15 psi over about 4000 RPM at WOT in either 1sr or 2nd, or in all gears, depending on calibration. I dont know this for sure, but I would guess that under 4K RPM, when the EEC thinks the max boost is 10 psi, it puts in less fuel than you really need if you are getting, say, 20 psi, all in by 3000 RPM like I am. Once over 4K RPM at WOT, the EEC thinks boost has popped up to 15 psi, and then adds more fuel, but still not enough for 18++ psi boost. I had to set my base fuel pressure to 46 psi (which adds about 10% more fuel when running open loop) to try and correct for this, but I still get a very slight stumble under certain boost / RPM / load conditions..... no big deal (I can tell, but passengers dont notice it unless I point it out to them), but it does annoy me a little!

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Jeff Korn

88 Turbo Coupe: Intake and exhaust mods, T3 turbo at 20 psi, forced air intercooler, water injection, bypass valve, Ranger roller cam, subframes, etc., etc.. // 86 Tbird 5.0 (original owner): intake, exhaust, valvetrain mods, 100 HP nitrous, ignition, gears, suspension, etc., etc.... // 91 Escort: Bone stock winter car // 00 Windstar (wifes vehicle)
Jeff Korn

88 Turbo Coupe: Intake and exhaust mods, T3 turbo at 24 psi, forced air IC, water injection, BPV, Ranger cam, subframes, etc., etc.
86 Tbird 5.0 (original owner): intake, exhaust, valvetrain mods, 100 HP N2O, ignition, gears, suspension, etc., etc.
05 Taurus SEL Duratec daily driver
04 Taurus Duratec (wifes car)
02 Pontiac Grand Prix GT
95 Taurus GL Vulcan winter beater
67 Honda 450 Super Sport - completely customized
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Glenn 88TC Offline
Posting Freak
#5
Quote:Originally posted by SteveX82:

Also, I've found it damn near impossible to tune my fuel pressure so that I get a nice, powerful a/f ratio in first and second gear without pinging like mad for a few moments after going WOT in 3rd-5th gears. What causes this, and is there any simple way to prevent it?

I had the complete opposite problem. My car wouldn't ping till the upper rpms in 3-5 no matter where I set my FP. I see 3 posible solutions.
1. You can just live with it being ovely rich during normal driving so those 3-5 blasts are safe.
2. The VAM actually gets ignored during WOT. You can dial back(put mote tension on the spring) the vam to keep your normal driving a little leaner and still have your higher FP when needed.
3. You can run stock fuel pressure and use a FMU to raise presue during boost. I think the Vortech super fmu can be adjusted from 1-6psi per pound of boost.

Quote:Originally posted by SteveX82:

At this rate, I'm about to call it quits with the stock computer. I'd like to go the EEC-tuner route, but it all seems so terribly complicated and geared more specifically to the 5.0 crowd. Then there's a standalone system, but that's a bit more money than I'd like to spend at the moment. All I want is to be able to drive my car as hard as I want to without fearing that "hey, i'm in 3rd gear with my fuel pressure set for power in 1st and 2nd gear, so I can't floor it unless I'm above 3200rpm so the computer doesn't fag out on me." So yeah, feel free to make any suggestions as to how I can teach my car to make the most of the work I've done to it.

Edit: Thanks in advance [Image: smile.gif]


The eec tuner is a really nice piece. I almost bought one 2 weeks ago. I'm going to hold out for a true standalone. I talked to many people about the tuner and I only had 2 problems with it.
1. You can only plug in a maximum injector size of 56pph. That will not be big enough for my goals. I could always raise the fuel pressure but that would put me right back to this problem. This is probably the only reason I didn't buy it.
2. The tuning is more difficult than a standalone. When the tuner changes the settings it affects other settings. You might have to change 4 things to make one new setting work. I do know that pnrvegas from TF runs the SDS an he says that you can adjust 6 things with it. He only adjusted 3 and runs 424rwhp.

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Glenn 88TC
current mods: ported & polished big valve head(1.89/1.59), ranger roller, custom upper and ported lower intakes, t3/t4 turbo, powerstroke intercooler mounted full sized, 60mm throttle body, 42lb. injectors, MSD 6al, MSD Launch Control, K&N filter, Walboro 255 pump, Kirban adj. fuel reg., ATR header, full 3" exhaust with Dynomax Ultraflow muffler, Star stage III clutch, Tiny Avenger bleed valve, Weld Draglites with M/T ET Street 26x11.5/15

Upgrades coming very soon: Hallman boost controller, rebuilt trac-loc, S&R Racing driveshaft loop, big roller cam, SDS Injection

[This message has been edited by Glenn 88TC (edited 09-07-2002).]
NO TC and NO headaches.
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Turboeric Offline
Junior Member
#6
You need to do some tuning of the base maps in the EEC module. Don't be afraid of the EEC-Tuner, there is a lot of support for the 2.3 turbo, many experienced individuals who love to help. I'm sure they have files that you could use to get you pretty close to where you need to be given your mods. Avoid modifing sensors in an attempt to fool the system, work on tuning the EEC- you'll be happier with the results.
1988 TC, T3/4, 3", 2 1/2 w/aero chambers, RR+, E6, intake, head porting, 55lbs, K&N, stage III, "tuned" eec, 80mm MAF, frt mnt, big valves.
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Glenn 88TC Offline
Posting Freak
#7
Quote:Originally posted by Turboeric:
You need to do some tuning of the base maps in the EEC module. Don't be afraid of the EEC-Tuner, there is a lot of support for the 2.3 turbo, many experienced individuals who love to help. I'm sure they have files that you could use to get you pretty close to where you need to be given your mods. Avoid modifing sensors in an attempt to fool the system, work on tuning the EEC- you'll be happier with the results.

Correct tuning of the fuel system is a must. The tuner does have a HP limit though. You can only plug in a 56pph injector max. After that you need to raise the FP again. Where do the 56pph inj. become too small. I'm thinking right around 400hp. I'll hold out and get the SDS. It is much more flexible. This system is being used on cars that run well inot the low 9's. I do have a higher goal set than most people though. The tuner is a very good system. I just don't think it will support the power that I'm looking to reach. Plus I can get rid of that POS vam.

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Glenn 88TC
current mods: ported & polished big valve head(1.89/1.59), ranger roller, custom upper and ported lower intakes, t3/t4 turbo, powerstroke intercooler mounted full sized, 60mm throttle body, 42lb. injectors, MSD 6al, MSD Launch Control, K&N filter, Walboro 255 pump, Kirban adj. fuel reg., ATR header, full 3" exhaust with Dynomax Ultraflow muffler, Star stage III clutch, Tiny Avenger bleed valve, Weld Draglites with M/T ET Street 26x11.5/15

Upgrades coming very soon: Hallman boost controller, rebuilt trac-loc, S&R Racing driveshaft loop, big roller cam, SDS Injection
NO TC and NO headaches.
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SteveX82 Offline
Posting Freak
#8
I guess I'll be ordering my EEC-Tuner later tonight, then. I was up until about 2am this morning checking out Randy's webpage and all the links associated with EEC-Tuners on 2.3L's. Despite my computer programming background, I was still a bit overwhelmed after seeing some .bin file examples. But hell, if it'll help my car run like it should, I'm more than willing to put in a bit of work to get the tuner to work right. Thanks for narrowing down my decision, everybody.

P.S. - I've come up with one other question....on www.eec-tuner.com it requires that you email them your processor code. However, under the listing of supported 2.3L turbo applications, LA2 is not listed. Is there another code I should be looking for?

[This message has been edited by SteveX82 (edited 09-07-2002).]
Estoril blue 1987 TC 5spd, 148k mi, a237, Bailey BOV, spec stg3 clutch, spearco FMIC, 50 trim t3/t4, 3" exhaust, Bamafuel, LM1, 55pph
Best 1/4 mile: 12.31 @ 110mph on 25psi
Reply

Glenn 88TC Offline
Posting Freak
#9
Quote:Originally posted by SteveX82:
I guess I'll be ordering my EEC-Tuner later tonight, then. I was up until about 2am this morning checking out Randy's webpage and all the links associated with EEC-Tuners on 2.3L's. Despite my computer programming background, I was still a bit overwhelmed after seeing some .bin file examples. But hell, if it'll help my car run like it should, I'm more than willing to put in a bit of work to get the tuner to work right. Thanks for narrowing down my decision, everybody.

P.S. - I've come up with one other question....on www.eec-tuner.com it requires that you email them your processor code. However, under the listing of supported 2.3L turbo applications, LA2 is not listed. Is there another code I should be looking for?

[This message has been edited by SteveX82 (edited 09-07-2002).]

contact RS450 from TF. He sells them and I would buy from him. He will give you all the tech support. The price is $480 to your door. It does support the la2. I've talked to Randy already and made sure when I was interested. Keep me posted.



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Glenn 88TC
current mods: ported & polished big valve head(1.89/1.59), ranger roller, custom upper and ported lower intakes, t3/t4 turbo, powerstroke intercooler mounted full sized, 60mm throttle body, 42lb. injectors, MSD 6al, MSD Launch Control, K&N filter, Walboro 255 pump, Kirban adj. fuel reg., ATR header, full 3" exhaust with Dynomax Ultraflow muffler, Star stage III clutch, Tiny Avenger bleed valve, Weld Draglites with M/T ET Street 26x11.5/15

Upgrades coming very soon: Hallman boost controller, rebuilt trac-loc, S&R Racing driveshaft loop, big roller cam, SDS Injection
NO TC and NO headaches.
Reply

Pete D Offline
Administrator
#10
Steve,
FYI theres a EEC tuner mail group at Yahoo
e-mail: [email protected]
web site: http://groups.yahoo.com/files/tuner23

I'm pretty sure I'll go with the tuner but I keep putting it off due to the "complexity"

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NATO Member. it's not a vice, it's an obsession
"The nice thing about each new day is nobody ever used it before" Barnaby Jones
88 TC X 2, 86 SVO, mods list at
http://www.turbotbird.com/showroom/pd_88tc.htm
Pete Dunham


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